Since this thread is wondering off the stated purpose for this reflector, I'd recommend Jamie and Stephen move things to a private discussion. Thanks Kenny On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 2:17 PM Jamie Hughes <wa7jh@outlook.com> wrote:
Stephen,
Thank you for your response.
Please see inline below in Blue if that will pass through.
Please don’t excuse my attempt to present perspective as agreement with how things were handled. I didn’t get into the intricacies of government inconsistencies. I want to offer that we must tread graciously as we move forward.
*Jamie Hughes*
WA7JH
Phone: (360) 340-8886 <+13603408886>
*From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of * Stephen Kangas *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:07 PM *To:* 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org>; 'Rob Salsgiver' < rob@nr3o.com> *Cc:* netops@hamwan.org *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] WADNR and Amateur relationship
Jamie,
It appears that you are not fully informed as to what took place leading up to WA DNR forcing amateur radio equipment off their land. The picture you are painting here is very one-sided, and smacks of parroting what DNR is saying, not taking into account the experiences of hams who were unduly kicked off. Publicly elected DNR Director Hillary Franz and DNR absolutely have blood on their hands, so to speak, and your attempts to quell that information and discussion here or anywhere else is at least unfair and at most censorship. Of course, I am among many who welcome you to express your OPINION, one that is hopefully factually based, but it will help your reputation along with your effectiveness of swaying others by addressing the complete story. Consider the following…
I am informed. I get to be from a bunch of perspectives. I am aware there are inconsistencies throughout the organization there at the WADNR and I am not here to justify those at all. Let me offer the following. And yes, I am one sided on the matter and here is why. And it ain’t fair!!!
- They (WADNR) own the sites, access, and rates to their sites. - We (us hams) broke the rules. - Some paid for it. - If we (you) don’t like it, feel free to find another site.
As a taxpayer, I expect that each agency recover it’s costs as much as possible. Some sites cost more than others. Some sites have more value than others. I expect that those agencies exploit that to our tax paying benefit.
Why I want to squash the bullshit insults. If we desire a to restore and retain a positive relationship with the WADNR, then we need to make every effort to be the better person. If we come across as sour then we are dead on arrival, period, end of story. We have some very awesome people representing us to restore that relationship and just so you all know it ain’t me. While I think I’m a good PIO, like you, I want to call bullshit quickly which might not make friends. 😊
There are indeed some hams that have gone beyond their annual payment deadlines, and some site owners not keeping DNR up to date on installed equipment nor passing along new DNR requirements to hams operating at their sites. But there were just as many or more hams complying with the “published” DNR requirements at the time they were granted agreement to install their equipment, which of course is not free to hams given the large amount of installation costs involved, who were expelled. Hillary was looking for any small loophole excuse that DNR could find to convert the low revenue stream from hams into a commercial rate pipe-dream to help make up for her shortfall of funding from the WA legislature’s approved budget.
We agree, hams broke their rules. But then you offered something more interesting. WADNR kicked legally allowed (complying) users off. Please know that there are clauses that allow WADNR to “kick” us off if another opportunity comes along. If you know of anyone or you are one of those asked to leave and the WADNR did not pursue said opportunity, I need you/them to reach out to me directly. I will put you/them in contact with those people representing us. However, the blanket statement “just as many” that leads me to some assumed ambiguity that tells me there’s maybe some holes in the story. Again, some folks broke the rules, and this caused focus on us. I’m not suggesting that some complaint people got caught up in the drama unjustly, but I need those people to step forward privately so we can get your story captured and represented.
Nearly all of us consumers pay annual, semi-annual, or monthly fees to service providers, whether that be a bank loan, magazine, whatever. Do we get email or USPS letter reminders when approaching such payment deadlines? Nearly always! Did the WA DNR send out such reminders to hams? NO. I spoke with one **commercial** tower operator who said they did not receive such reminders either, so why are they still on DNR land unexpelled? The point here is that it is unreasonable (1) to expect a ham subscriber to remember once per year that payment is due, especially when they are a volunteer who has no pecuniary/financial benefit from being on DNR land, some hams did remember, some hams did not, leading to (2) the loophole for DNR to throw the baby out with the bath water eliminating everyone else do to missed/late payments.
I get your point but it’s not their responsibility. It’s called being an adult. And now I get to call BS.
And now I get to dive into s*** that is off topic: Most commercial interests don’t lease “tower space” they lease WADNR land for which their building and tower reside. WADNR doesn’t want any of it, so they want to work with the building and tower owner to remain in good standing. Crown Castle, American Tower, all Vertical Bridge, all do this. Many of these have a fall back of a month to month with the annual contract expires.
DNR previously had NO written/published policy and details about how many radios, tower equipment wind loading, and how many individual amateur radio operators or ham organizations could own equipment at a single DNR site up to this debacle. When Hillary’s appointed project manager was directed to kick the hams out (which happened after her predecessor for comm site operations left DNR and who was very supportive of hams for emergency communications), there was all of a sudden a flurry of NEW requirements developed simultaneously to justify getting rid of more hams, including a limitation of a single radio/antenna at each site, new “safety” specs on tower wind loading, etc, that is now applied to towers/equipment not owned by DNR, instead owned by responsible third parties. These NEW requirements were thrust upon hams suddenly with insufficient warning, therefore no time to modify/improve towers/etc. The single radio requirement alone was enough to get rid of many hams sharing a tower site with other hams, in several cases sharing along with commercial gear. Now, if the site owners/operators had knowledge of any such prior, or new, requirements, they would FIRST need to be notified by DNR AND urged to notify their downstream ham operators at the same site…did that happen? NO, according to those site operators I’ve spoken to. Again, the DNR intentions and resulting agenda is pretty clear, as the excuses invented to drive hams out have little to do with the greater plan of getting more DNR revenue from hams or correcting new “misuses” of DNR land.
I want to ensure that understand the complaint(s) in full here.
- Safety - The claim is that a new person came in and that person recognized that towers were out of compliance and maybe were unsafe and that is going to justify what exactly? I mean, is the state supposed to throw up their hands and put up a sign that says, it’s cool, it might fall down , this sites not important. And when it falls and smashes the gear in the shelter, or maybe it kills someone, then what, you’re good with it? Just because someone else didn’t have time to follow up on tower compliance, doesn't mean you get a pass. Just because one cop doesn’t pull you over for speeding doesn’t mean another one won’t. - They Hate Us - I think there is a misrepresentation here and this is what I am after. And I want to dive into this way more. There is some assumption that WADNR doesn’t like us hams or the services we offer. This is false. Let me shed some light on this and let me be frank and straight here. If someone breaks the rules and those rules are found in violation in more than one location, then it starts to gain more attention. When you learn that those rules are broken and it appears to be a systemic issue, then you better believe someone’s irritated. That doesn’t mean they don’t support the effort or your mission. It means they don’t trust you. And if the service you offer comes with your name and your association with it, then I don’t trust it, you, or them. This is what we are working to repair. - And you better believe that we should be so lucky to still be allowed what we are. I can’t speak to the history on this, but I remember hearing (way back machine) there has been a limit of two per site for years. Think I heard it from Jon Marsinco (Spelling) - If it was clear that they hated us, then the current, in good standing repeaters would be on their way out, but they aren’t. Again, see above if you were incorrectly wronged, please reach out to me directly.
Those of us who have exposure to the commercial telecommunications and radio industry know that the market for such higher elevation and remote communications sites has been in decline for several years. 5G wireless mobile is moving rapidly to lower elevation localized multiple stations due to its higher frequencies that are not suitable for high elevation or remote DNR land, and the shift away from longer wavelengths outside the military is steady. Therefore, DNR’s hope to improve their revenues via commercial leases is a pipe dream. The hope to convert ham subscriptions to commercial rates is also a pipe dream. Neither is happening to any significant amount to date, and I predict it never will. DNR is understandably woefully ignorant of the market forces at play here, their mission in life is non-commercial in nature managing natural resources and they don’t understand much of anything outside the lumber, fire-fighting, mineral interests that consume the vast majority of their internal resources and time. Only the WA legislature can save DNR financially.
Off topic
In the meantime, the repercussions of WA DNR’s short-sighted move to pursue the letter of their new policies and agreements (ala your position of contract compliance) while sacrificing support for state, county, city emergency and public service communications preparedness and activations, along with the public benefit of individual amateur operators who also vote, should appropriately come back to bite them. Our city has lost very valuable emergency communications infrastructure, so has our King County and other counties, Search And Rescue is impeded which in itself has the potential of affecting the safety of the firefighters that DNR will be deploying in coming summers into remote areas where volunteer ham repeaters and their volunteer 4X4 SAR hams are often the sole option for asset tracking, communications, and incident response.
This is off topic. It assumes they don’t want us there. But you touched on another topic worth a quick shout out.
Emergency Communications – This seems to be a major part of the amateur mission. We as amateurs do NOT hold the burden of ensuring our state, our counties, or our cities have emergency communications. I am all about supporting it or augmenting EMCOM, but we are not the end all be all of emergency communications.
The buck always stops at the top of any organizational structure, as they are responsible for such actions that take place within. I am doing my part as a concerned voting citizen helping those who are most affected by this debacle to know what happened and why, as I do hope that someday hams will once again be allowed to use those same DNR lands and the comm sites installed there per the original WA RCW mandate at the low lease cost that allows it…I’m not optimistic that even if that were to happen that hams will RE-spend the amount of time, labor, and money to replace their equipment back in place, considering the memory of history and how futile that can wind up being.
Stephen, ME TOOOOOOOO.
We have a choice. We can get all fired up, pissed off, and go all “ham,” or we can choose to be kind and respectful and apologetic for our missteps. I’m not saying this hiccup doesn’t suck. We get to pay for the mistakes of others. We get to. If we get angry, then they simply shut it down and it’s done. If we go kindly with the support and willingness to work with them, I bet we are welcome with open arms as currently witnessed by the several repeaters and systems at DNR sites currently operating. I’m not asking any of you to be silent, I am asking that you understand their perspective, and go forward with kindness.
All of us have some amazing, creative, and positive people working on our behalf in this effort. I want us to unite behind their efforts and stop making it sour. If you want to be angry at something, make sure that you and those you know abide by the rules. If that would have been done, we would not be here.
Stephen W9SK
Again, thank you,
Sincerely,
Jamie
WA7JH
Stephen Kangas W9SK
Public Information Officer
North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT
North Bend, WA (CN97)
NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events.
*When all else fails…Amateur Radio*
*From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of *Jamie Hughes *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 9:15 AM *To:* Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com
*Cc:* netops@hamwan.org *Subject:* [HamWAN PSDR] WADNR and Amateur relationship
Hey everyone,
Surrounding the WADNR and Amateur relationship I need to ask that those of you that believe that you/we have been wronged by the WADNR, please know that you/we have not!
Please stop with any and all insults, digs, or alike towards them.
*Your Impact*
When you engage on this topic you are likely speaking out of turn and have no idea surrounding why you/we were impacted. Sure, it sucks to be asked to leave, but if I came to your house and moved in without paying rent, you to might get all bent out of shape. You might be cool if I moved in, paid rent for me, but when I invite all my friends to move in as well, then you might get angry. In short this is what happened.
I had members of my own club engage with a local county commissioner that joined us for our breakfast meeting and dove into this asking for help but failed to understand the background. Just imagine how poorly this would have turned out if our Commissioner reached out to the WADNR and found out that people were complaining about access but then learning that we failed to comply with the contract.
*Details*
WADNR completed an audit and found several of their sites with equipment not captured in legal contracts. They did not single out amateurs as apart of this effort. Those amateurs that breached their contracts had a couple of things happen.
- Their amateur discount was revoked. - And they were offered to renegotiate their contracts but at the commercial rate. Going from ~$80 a year ~$400 a month is a shocker.
*Note: *Commercial sites charge based on floor space and tower location.
There are several efforts underway to ensure we repair our relationship with WADNR. There are still several amateurs that have great relationships with WADNR. Please don’t f*** this up for them.
If you still have concerns, you are welcome to reach out to me or the HamWAN leadership. Please know that all of us are trying to remain respectful of those that got caught and drug us into this drama. I would love to out those guys as I have a history with a few of them, but it doesn’t benefit the issue or our hobby to do so.
73 (Ham radio way of saying Best Regards),
*Jamie Hughes*
*WA7JH*
*President / Public Information Officer / Repeater Committee Chair, KCARC*
*Public Information Officer, ARRL – Western Washington Section*
Email: president@kcarc.org
Phone: (360) 340-8886 <+13603408886>
PO Box 2268
Silverdale, WA 98383
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