Please review https://www.ampr.org/giving/ If you have a project, development, etc. that could benefit from a grant, here is your opportunity. -- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE
On 6/16/20 5:00 PM, John D. Hays wrote:
Please review https://www.ampr.org/giving/ If you have a project, development, etc. that could benefit from a grant, here is your opportunity.
I would hope HamWAN has more morals than to take any money from ARDC. The people running this organization have perpetuate the greatest crime against the community in years. They have no oversight, and contempt for the community. Further they have failed to disclose any details of this "sale", hence the 30+ million they left on the table. It's dirty money from a dirty organization. I had the good sense to resign from the TAC, I can't see how anyone could be part of it in good faith after this. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
I was really hoping this drama wouldn't be brought into PSDR, but it seems John has forced my hand in needing to address this. Also, since I'm presently running for HamWAN Board, I should make my views on this clear. Cast your votes accordingly. AMPR (really: ARDC, Inc.) has stolen hundreds of millions of dollars from the global amateur radio community and now they're attempting to legitimize their crime by appearing charitable. I will not support touching this dirty money, and encourage others to stay as far away from it as modern protesters stay away from conveniently-placed piles of bricks: It's all bait to literally buy cover for their theft. From a pragmatic standpoint, nobody will prosecute them, because between ARDC's hundreds of millions and Amazon's legal team combined, you'll never win. And over time, people will be weak, and eat from their hand, and eventually forget about it. However, money has never been a limiting factor for HamWAN, and I'd rather sleep well at night than corrupt HamWAN by participating in this debacle. Given my lovely email here, it's entirely possible ARDC will now retaliate by rescinding our currently allocated address space. John is our local coordinator who would be in charge of these decisions. We should probably make contingency plans to continue the network without ARDC's involvement. --Bart On 6/16/2020 3:13 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:
On 6/16/20 5:00 PM, John D. Hays wrote:
Please review https://www.ampr.org/giving/ If you have a project, development, etc. that could benefit from a grant, here is your opportunity. I would hope HamWAN has more morals than to take any money from ARDC. The people running this organization have perpetuate the greatest crime against the community in years. They have no oversight, and contempt for the community. Further they have failed to disclose any details of this "sale", hence the 30+ million they left on the table.
It's dirty money from a dirty organization. I had the good sense to resign from the TAC, I can't see how anyone could be part of it in good faith after this.
My post was simply to inform that there is grant money available. Whether any groups wish to submit grant requests is their own choice. I will leave the political arguments out of it. Only to say that people should hear both sides. I will, however, address the following statement: On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:46 PM Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> wrote:
Given my lovely email here, it's entirely possible ARDC will now retaliate by rescinding our currently allocated address space. John is our local coordinator who would be in charge of these decisions. We should probably make contingency plans to continue the network without ARDC's involvement.
--Bart
I am the coordinator for the Western Washington block of addresses 44.24.0.0/16 and have no vendetta against HamWAN, even when falsely accused. I also encouraged and supported HamWAN getting their own /16 block, which they did and I have no control over it. -- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE
Everyone, This is obviously a very charged issue. So far things have been fairly respectful, and I am entirely for everyone having their own side to this. Let’s all please keep it that way. Please keep the list civil, and no personal attacks. Thank you everyone for your discourse. Nigel
My apologies for mis-representing your role here. I will also confirm that John has supported HamWAN over the years, not just trough ARDC guidance but also other means, and that my email should not be misconstrued as some attack on John personally. --Bart On 6/16/2020 4:17 PM, John D. Hays wrote:
My post was simply to inform that there is grant money available. Whether any groups wish to submit grant requests is their own choice.
I will leave the political arguments out of it. Only to say that people should hear both sides.
I will, however, address the following statement:
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:46 PM Bart Kus <me@bartk.us <mailto:me@bartk.us>> wrote:
Given my lovely email here, it's entirely possible ARDC will now retaliate by rescinding our currently allocated address space. John is our local coordinator who would be in charge of these decisions. We should probably make contingency plans to continue the network without ARDC's involvement.
--Bart
I am the coordinator for the Western Washington block of addresses 44.24.0.0/16 <http://44.24.0.0/16> and have no vendetta against HamWAN, even when falsely accused. I also encouraged and supported HamWAN getting their own /16 block, which they did and I have no control over it.
-- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Thank you, Bart. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:38 PM Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> wrote:
My apologies for mis-representing your role here.
I will also confirm that John has supported HamWAN over the years, not just trough ARDC guidance but also other means, and that my email should not be misconstrued as some attack on John personally.
--Bart
John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE
I am the license trustee for HamWAN's IP allocations and to this date have never publicly expressed an opinion on this matter. So, I would hope we're not in danger of retaliation because of the statements of someone who isn't technically a member of our leadership at the moment. ;) Let's all try to keep this civil and professional. The relationship between ARDC and the community was rocky even before the sale which was seen as a huge breach of trust. However, it's clear that what was done cannot be undone, so holding a grudge is not very productive. Especially since we regrettably lost Brian Kantor who was likely the main decision maker. I hope that going forward ARDC can be more transparent and try to earn our trust back over time. Personally, I don't favor large sums of money being involved in amateur radio. Frugality is one of the major drivers of innovation and tends to give way to other things when spending money on a problem is an option. However, if someone has an idea for a benevolent purpose for that money, I would not fault them for applying for it. Luckily, HamWAN is blessed with many generous donors who contribute $10 a month or more and that really adds up. We're in a financially healthy place right now and don't need to pursue any grants, but thank you for telling us about them (any everything else you do), John. ;) -Cory NQ1E HamWAN Director/Treasurer On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:46 PM John D. Hays <john@hays.org> wrote:
Thank you, Bart.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:38 PM Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> wrote:
My apologies for mis-representing your role here.
I will also confirm that John has supported HamWAN over the years, not just trough ARDC guidance but also other means, and that my email should not be misconstrued as some attack on John personally.
--Bart
John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
On 6/16/20 8:15 PM, Cory (NQ1E) wrote:
The relationship between ARDC and the community was rocky even before the sale which was seen as a huge breach of trust. However, it's clear that what was done cannot be undone, so holding a grudge is not very productive.
This is not true, a court can do many things. This hopefully would be during the penalty phase of a criminal trial.
Especially since we regrettably lost Brian Kantor who was likely the main decision maker.
All people involved in the management of ARDC are guilty in this. Losing one person doesn't do away with the unclean hands of the other board members.
I hope that going forward ARDC can be more transparent and try to earn our trust back over time.
It would be nice, but I think the only way this will happen is to remove ARDC from the 44net space. They could have easily been open with the community from day one, they actively chose not to. ARDC has operated in a very high handed matter for years. Lets not kid ourselves, Phil Karn and Brian Kantor were huge impediments to amateur IP data networks for decades. Now we have Phil running things and a quite conflicted board of directors. The argument was "we had to move NOW and in secret to get the best price for the space". If that was the case, why was it sold so cheaply? Had they waited, the price would have kept going up. There could have been input from the community, opinions sought from states attorneys, open and fair bidding for the space, and a clear plan on how to setup the non-profit foundation. It's going to be decades until IPv4 space is not needed, nothing needed to be rushed. You can't reform it, ARDC needs to be razed and rebuilt using trust of the community. Look at the giving they have done to date, it's not benefiting any users of the space, or hams in general. The orgs they have given to are guilty of taking ill-gotten funds just the same. And hey don't take my words for ARDC being fucked, here's the direct quote from the President (Phil) in speaking with me.
I'm more than willing to push reset and have a more constructive discussion about how to proceed, but first I do have to make two things clear: 1) I don't think you have a leg to stand on to complain and 2) I would have expected a somewhat more positive response to an announcement that significant grants will now be available for many of the ham radio things that until now we've all had to fund out of our own pockets or by begging from other hams.
I'm not going to kiss his ring, but it would seem others will. 73's -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
I’m curious how you know it was sold so cheaply? I thought the terms of the price were kept confidential. -A
On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 6/16/20 8:15 PM, Cory (NQ1E) wrote:
The relationship between ARDC and the community was rocky even before the sale which was seen as a huge breach of trust. However, it's clear that what was done cannot be undone, so holding a grudge is not very productive.
This is not true, a court can do many things. This hopefully would be during the penalty phase of a criminal trial.
Especially since we regrettably lost Brian Kantor who was likely the main decision maker.
All people involved in the management of ARDC are guilty in this. Losing one person doesn't do away with the unclean hands of the other board members.
I hope that going forward ARDC can be more transparent and try to earn our trust back over time.
It would be nice, but I think the only way this will happen is to remove ARDC from the 44net space. They could have easily been open with the community from day one, they actively chose not to. ARDC has operated in a very high handed matter for years. Lets not kid ourselves, Phil Karn and Brian Kantor were huge impediments to amateur IP data networks for decades. Now we have Phil running things and a quite conflicted board of directors.
The argument was "we had to move NOW and in secret to get the best price for the space". If that was the case, why was it sold so cheaply? Had they waited, the price would have kept going up. There could have been input from the community, opinions sought from states attorneys, open and fair bidding for the space, and a clear plan on how to setup the non-profit foundation. It's going to be decades until IPv4 space is not needed, nothing needed to be rushed.
You can't reform it, ARDC needs to be razed and rebuilt using trust of the community. Look at the giving they have done to date, it's not benefiting any users of the space, or hams in general. The orgs they have given to are guilty of taking ill-gotten funds just the same.
And hey don't take my words for ARDC being fucked, here's the direct quote from the President (Phil) in speaking with me.
I'm more than willing to push reset and have a more constructive discussion about how to proceed, but first I do have to make two things clear: 1) I don't think you have a leg to stand on to complain and 2) I would have expected a somewhat more positive response to an announcement that significant grants will now be available for many of the ham radio things that until now we've all had to fund out of our own pockets or by begging from other hams.
I'm not going to kiss his ring, but it would seem others will.
73's -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Yes, under the terms of the purchase agreement the purchase price is confidential. However, the AMPR.org website FAQ gives a clue, in that the average IP address price in 2018 was $17 each, and was trending upward, so by the mid-2019 sale that would imply the 4 million addresses ARDC sold to Amazon might have brought in $68million; one shouldn't be surprised if there was a bulk discount off that, although considering that the IPv4 prices have been trending upward at the time, there arguably might not have been such a discount. It is highly debatable IMO that those addresses were sold "cheap". The IPv4 address space has already been depleted, and there is an inexpensive alternative: IPv6. All new networking equipment and computers for the past decade has been IPv6 ready, which means that there is expected to be early downward pressure on IPv4 addresses over the next few years. It looks to me that ARDC may have exploited their sale at the right time. Either way, trying to predict market pricing on nearing the end of life of IPv4 is at least challenging for anyone, and I expect lots of widely varying opinions from observers of that. There will be a better gauge of that sale revenue when ARDC files their 990 form with the IRS this year, which must be made publicly available at least by request (although they have been posting them on their website). Stephen W9SK -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Dickinson Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 9:35 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Grants I’m curious how you know it was sold so cheaply? I thought the terms of the price were kept confidential. -A
On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 6/16/20 8:15 PM, Cory (NQ1E) wrote:
The relationship between ARDC and the community was rocky even before the sale which was seen as a huge breach of trust. However, it's clear that what was done cannot be undone, so holding a grudge is not very productive.
This is not true, a court can do many things. This hopefully would be during the penalty phase of a criminal trial.
Especially since we regrettably lost Brian Kantor who was likely the main decision maker.
All people involved in the management of ARDC are guilty in this. Losing one person doesn't do away with the unclean hands of the other board members.
I hope that going forward ARDC can be more transparent and try to earn our trust back over time.
It would be nice, but I think the only way this will happen is to remove ARDC from the 44net space. They could have easily been open with the community from day one, they actively chose not to. ARDC has operated in a very high handed matter for years. Lets not kid ourselves, Phil Karn and Brian Kantor were huge impediments to amateur IP data networks for decades. Now we have Phil running things and a quite conflicted board of directors.
The argument was "we had to move NOW and in secret to get the best price for the space". If that was the case, why was it sold so cheaply? Had they waited, the price would have kept going up. There could have been input from the community, opinions sought from states attorneys, open and fair bidding for the space, and a clear plan on how to setup the non-profit foundation. It's going to be decades until IPv4 space is not needed, nothing needed to be rushed.
You can't reform it, ARDC needs to be razed and rebuilt using trust of the community. Look at the giving they have done to date, it's not benefiting any users of the space, or hams in general. The orgs they have given to are guilty of taking ill-gotten funds just the same.
And hey don't take my words for ARDC being fucked, here's the direct quote from the President (Phil) in speaking with me.
I'm more than willing to push reset and have a more constructive discussion about how to proceed, but first I do have to make two things clear: 1) I don't think you have a leg to stand on to complain and 2) I would have expected a somewhat more positive response to an announcement that significant grants will now be available for many of the ham radio things that until now we've all had to fund out of our own pockets or by begging from other hams.
I'm not going to kiss his ring, but it would seem others will.
73's -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
On 6/17/20 1:13 AM, Stephen Kangas wrote:
one shouldn't be surprised if there was a bulk discount off that
Proof this person has no idea of the realities on the IP address sale market. Larger contiguous blocks command a higher price than what a single /24 is worth per address. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On 6/17/20 12:34 AM, Andrew Dickinson wrote:
I’m curious how you know it was sold so cheaply? I thought the terms of the price were kept confidential.
Brian Kantor stated the price was between 50-59 million. At the time of the sale, IP's were about 20/IP with larger blocks commanding a higher price. A /10 would be about 83m at this rate. Best case they left 20m on the table, worst case, they left 33m. It's likely the people in management at ARDC (Brian) had no real experience in this market. As of now an IP is worth about 34 dollars. So they certainly could have waited to sell with no down side. 73s -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
Can you please move the palace intrigue and pricing details to a private chat? On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:59 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 6/17/20 12:34 AM, Andrew Dickinson wrote:
I’m curious how you know it was sold so cheaply? I thought the terms of the price were kept confidential.
Brian Kantor stated the price was between 50-59 million. At the time of the sale, IP's were about 20/IP with larger blocks commanding a higher price.
A /10 would be about 83m at this rate. Best case they left 20m on the table, worst case, they left 33m. It's likely the people in management at ARDC (Brian) had no real experience in this market.
As of now an IP is worth about 34 dollars. So they certainly could have waited to sell with no down side.
73s -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
On 6/17/20 2:23 AM, William Murphy wrote:
Can you please move the palace intrigue and pricing details to a private chat?
Can you please learn how to reply to email properly? -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
No need to be snooty. You just lost my support. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:31 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 6/17/20 2:23 AM, William Murphy wrote:
Can you please move the palace intrigue and pricing details to a private chat?
Can you please learn how to reply to email properly?
-- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
On 6/17/20 2:33 AM, William Murphy wrote:
No need to be snooty. You just lost my support.
I never needed it to begin with. Go back, learn how to use your MUA and then try posting again. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
AND MINE. I don't know all the details of this issue, but I certainly recognize a scorched-earth trouble-maker when I see one. I will be watching VERY CAREFULLY to see if this person ever gets on the HamWAN board. On 2020-06-16 23:33, William Murphy wrote:
No need to be snooty. You just lost my support.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:31 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net <mailto:Bryan@bryanfields.net>> wrote:
On 6/17/20 2:23 AM, William Murphy wrote: > Can you please move the palace intrigue and pricing details to a private chat?
Can you please learn how to reply to email properly?
-- Bryan Fields
All, Things have started to deviate from civil discourse on this thread. Please keep it in check. Nigel
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:59 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 6/17/20 12:34 AM, Andrew Dickinson wrote:
I’m curious how you know it was sold so cheaply? I thought the terms of the price were kept confidential.
Brian Kantor stated the price was between 50-59 million. At the time of the sale, IP's were about 20/IP with larger blocks commanding a higher price.
A /10 would be about 83m at this rate. Best case they left 20m on the table, worst case, they left 33m. It's likely the people in management at ARDC (Brian) had no real experience in this market.
Just looked into it, the sale was 108 million, as released to the public in October. That's 20 million more than your estimate after what they "left on the table"
As of now an IP is worth about 34 dollars. So they certainly could have waited to sell with no down side.
They could've waited til the pandemic and may have not even had a buyer. Theres no such thing as predicting the future price.
73s -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
On 12/15/20 12:52 PM, Skyler F wrote:
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:59 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ take note of this
Just looked into it, the sale was 108 million, as released to the public in October.
Go back and read the item above; pull out a few digits and count, June, July, August, September, October. You should have a full hand staring back at you.
As of now an IP is worth about 34 dollars. So they certainly could have waited to sell with no down side.
They could've waited til the pandemic and may have not even had a buyer. Theres no such thing as predicting the future price.
So if they get enough money, it's ok? Keep in mind the people involved bungled this to high heaven, and the leader of the gang even went on a diatribe about how it's not theirs to sell years before selling it. At the end of the day, nothing about ARDC is open and forthright. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
I feel what ARDC did was heroic and visionary. I applaud ARDC for their actions in creating an endowment to fund deserving projects that for too long have been ignored by Amateur Radio’s deep pocketed “charitable” organizations. I urge HamWAN to do as John suggests and apply for an ARDC grant to further its mission. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 15:13 Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
I would hope HamWAN has more morals than to take any money from ARDC. The people running this organization have perpetuate the greatest crime against the community in years. They have no oversight, and contempt for the community. Further they have failed to disclose any details of this "sale", hence the 30+ million they left on the table.
It's dirty money from a dirty organization. I had the good sense to resign from the TAC, I can't see how anyone could be part of it in good faith after this. -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
-- Steve Stroh (personal / general): stevestroh@gmail.com
participants (11)
-
Andrew Dickinson -
Bart Kus -
Bryan Fields -
Cory (NQ1E) -
Dean Gibson AE7Q -
John D. Hays -
Nigel Vander Houwen -
Skyler F -
Stephen Kangas -
Steve Stroh -
William Murphy