Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update
Yes, we were lucky! A few years ago we had a similar thing happen at Bawfaw. Bart and I made a winter trip to the mountain top to find at least one PoE injector had water ingress corrosion to the point of failure. We did the "strip an inch of jacket at the low point" fix, crimped on new RJ45s and replaced the injector. Still operational years later. One of these summers, we need to climb the Bawfaw tower and assess any cat cable damage that allowed the water ingress in the first place. Cable dressing at the bottom of the tower could use some work as well. I know a little while back, we talked about testing the Truecable direct burial CAT5E with water-blocking tape. If I recall, it was a little too big to fit in our standard 6mm 10-hole barrel cushions. Did we decide against it? Dale AH6ET -------- Original message -------- From: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> Date: 10/28/23 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Bart Kus' <me@bartk.us>, 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update I definitely agree it has benefits as a revised standard to future installs and/or retrofits. In this case we didn't have water reach and wick into the RJ45 terminations, so we were lucky this time. Might be something to put on the next visit list. Thanks for sharing. Rob From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:55 PM To: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>; 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update The key difference is the lack of RJ45 termination on the cable coming down the tower. If you don't give the water somewhere to go, it'll go right into the RJ45 fingers and with PoE on there, it'll corrode and short/open in no time. The punchdown blocks let it drip down without touching any copper. One can also remove the jacket, and shield, and plastic film from the cable to let it drip before an RJ45, but I found that to be cumbersome to do, ugly looking and fragile. --Bart On 10/28/2023 8:51 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:
In the case of Lookout, the incoming CAT cables went into the bottom of the lightning protection similar to your picture at Haystack. Once the jackets of the CAT cables were compromised up above, the water rode down the jackets clear inside the building. Ironically the lightning protection wasn't affected, as the excess cable looped inside and upward entry into the lightning protection served to stop/slow the path of the water. It was mostly when the cables were unplugged and left to hang that the water started dripping out. It could have been worse. The hardline that broke free up above did a pretty serious number on the CAT cables, stretching them and allowing them to abrade on the angle iron / etc.
Cheers,
Rob
From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:38 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update
Water water everywhere! New water drainage devices have been installed @ Haystack. May be useful elsewhere. Surprised to hear SnoDEM was affected. Those cables are really well supported.
--Bart
On 10/28/2023 6:27 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:
The maintenance at Lookout is complete.
Problems found on inspection include:
* PTP link to Triangle (only one operating) had an abrasion in the CAT5E jacket up next to the dish. This link has been intermittent, causing the site to go up and down repeatedly, most notably during periods of rain. * PTP link to SnoDEM was found to have significant damage to the CAT5E jacket toward the upper end where it runs from the main cableway out to the dish. * Sector 2 is offline (more on this below)
The cause of the damage to both PTP link CAT cables was due to another tenant's antenna hardline had become detached from it's mountings and fell toward the inside of the tower, stretching both CAT cables and damaging them.
New CAT cables were pulled for both Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes and the site is stable once again and fed from both sources.
Sector 2 is still down, as we simply could not get to it on this trip. S2 is substantially higher on the tower and after the first two antennas were corrected the call was made to stop there due to fatigue and waning daylight. It is unlikely that S2 will be fixed before winter, but it should be able to be done as soon as an opening allows in the spring.
While we didn't go up to examine the cable, it was leaking water through the jacket down at the tower base just like the Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes were, so it likely shares the same root cause.
Apologies we weren't able to get S2 done, but at least it looks to be cabling instead of a hardware issue. For now S2 has been unplugged at the lightning arrestor.
Thanks to Kenny Richards, Scott Honaker, and Jim Irving for joining me to help make this all happen. We were fortunate to luck into likely the last weather opening for the season.
Cheers,
Rob Salsgiver - NR3O
_______________________________________________
PSDR mailing list
PSDR@hamwan.org
-------- Original message --------From: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> Date: 10/28/23 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Bart Kus' <me@bartk.us>, 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update I definitely agree it has benefits as a revised standard to future installs and/or retrofits. In this case we didn't have water reach and wick into the RJ45 terminations, so we were lucky this time. Might be something to put on the next visit list. Thanks for sharing. Rob From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:55 PMTo: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>; 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org>Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update The key difference is the lack of RJ45 termination on the cable coming down the tower. If you don't give the water somewhere to go, it'll go right into the RJ45 fingers and with PoE on there, it'll corrode and short/open in no time. The punchdown blocks let it drip down without touching any copper. One can also remove the jacket, and shield, and plastic film from the cable to let it drip before an RJ45, but I found that to be cumbersome to do, ugly looking and fragile.--Bart On 10/28/2023 8:51 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:In the case of Lookout, the incoming CAT cables went into the bottom of the lightning protection similar to your picture at Haystack. Once the jackets of the CAT cables were compromised up above, the water rode down the jackets clear inside the building. Ironically the lightning protection wasn't affected, as the excess cable looped inside and upward entry into the lightning protection served to stop/slow the path of the water. It was mostly when the cables were unplugged and left to hang that the water started dripping out. It could have been worse. The hardline that broke free up above did a pretty serious number on the CAT cables, stretching them and allowing them to abrade on the angle iron / etc. Cheers,Rob From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:38 PMTo: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update Water water everywhere! New water drainage devices have been installed @ Haystack. May be useful elsewhere. Surprised to hear SnoDEM was affected. Those cables are really well supported.--Bart On 10/28/2023 6:27 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:The maintenance at Lookout is complete. Problems found on inspection include:PTP link to Triangle (only one operating) had an abrasion in the CAT5E jacket up next to the dish. This link has been intermittent, causing the site to go up and down repeatedly, most notably during periods of rain.PTP link to SnoDEM was found to have significant damage to the CAT5E jacket toward the upper end where it runs from the main cableway out to the dish.Sector 2 is offline (more on this below) The cause of the damage to both PTP link CAT cables was due to another tenant's antenna hardline had become detached from it's mountings and fell toward the inside of the tower, stretching both CAT cables and damaging them. New CAT cables were pulled for both Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes and the site is stable once again and fed from both sources. Sector 2 is still down, as we simply could not get to it on this trip. S2 is substantially higher on the tower and after the first two antennas were corrected the call was made to stop there due to fatigue and waning daylight. It is unlikely that S2 will be fixed before winter, but it should be able to be done as soon as an opening allows in the spring. While we didn't go up to examine the cable, it was leaking water through the jacket down at the tower base just like the Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes were, so it likely shares the same root cause. Apologies we weren't able to get S2 done, but at least it looks to be cabling instead of a hardware issue. For now S2 has been unplugged at the lightning arrestor. Thanks to Kenny Richards, Scott Honaker, and Jim Irving for joining me to help make this all happen. We were fortunate to luck into likely the last weather opening for the season. Cheers,Rob Salsgiver - NR3O_______________________________________________PSDR mailing listPSDR@hamwan.orghttps://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
I uploaded all the pictures I took on Saturday, but wanted to share two in particular to explain why the Triangle PtP had gone off line. https://www.ku7m.net/drop/Hardline-PullCAT5-Arrows.jpg Red Arrow - That is the hardline which had pulled the CAT5 almost a foot from the cable tray. Orange Arrow - This is where the hardline and another coax had managed to wrap themselves around the ladder, ensuring there was consistent tension on the CAT5 Blue Arrow - This is the hanger which 'used' to hold the hardline/coax. The rubber cushion was long gone. https://www.ku7m.net/drop/Triangle-CAT5Hanger2.jpg The result was two of the CAT5 hangers had been completely pulled out and the CAT5 was floating with the cushions still on it. No idea where the hangers went, but the mounts were still on the tower. I ended up pulling the hardline and coax back to where it was supposed to be on the cable tray, zip-tied the whole mess back into their broken hanger clamp. I routed the new CAT5 runs on the tower side of all the coax/hardline runs and added another mount/cushion hanger at each point where it transitioned from the cable tray to the antennas. Thanks Kenny On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 9:40 PM Dale Skyllingstad < dskyllingstad@harbornet.com> wrote:
Yes, we were lucky! A few years ago we had a similar thing happen at Bawfaw. Bart and I made a winter trip to the mountain top to find at least one PoE injector had water ingress corrosion to the point of failure. We did the "strip an inch of jacket at the low point" fix, crimped on new RJ45s and replaced the injector. Still operational years later. One of these summers, we need to climb the Bawfaw tower and assess any cat cable damage that allowed the water ingress in the first place. Cable dressing at the bottom of the tower could use some work as well.
I know a little while back, we talked about testing the Truecable direct burial CAT5E with water-blocking tape. If I recall, it was a little too big to fit in our standard 6mm 10-hole barrel cushions. Did we decide against it?
Dale
AH6ET -------- Original message -------- From: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> Date: 10/28/23 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Bart Kus' <me@bartk.us>, 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update
I definitely agree it has benefits as a revised standard to future installs and/or retrofits. In this case we didn't have water reach and wick into the RJ45 terminations, so we were lucky this time. Might be something to put on the next visit list.
Thanks for sharing.
Rob
*From:* Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:55 PM *To:* Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>; 'Puget Sound Data Ring' < psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update
The key difference is the lack of RJ45 termination on the cable coming down the tower. If you don't give the water somewhere to go, it'll go right into the RJ45 fingers and with PoE on there, it'll corrode and short/open in no time. The punchdown blocks let it drip down without touching any copper. One can also remove the jacket, and shield, and plastic film from the cable to let it drip before an RJ45, but I found that to be cumbersome to do, ugly looking and fragile.
--Bart
On 10/28/2023 8:51 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:
In the case of Lookout, the incoming CAT cables went into the bottom of the lightning protection similar to your picture at Haystack. Once the jackets of the CAT cables were compromised up above, the water rode down the jackets clear inside the building. Ironically the lightning protection wasn't affected, as the excess cable looped inside and upward entry into the lightning protection served to stop/slow the path of the water. It was mostly when the cables were unplugged and left to hang that the water started dripping out. It could have been worse. The hardline that broke free up above did a pretty serious number on the CAT cables, stretching them and allowing them to abrade on the angle iron / etc.
Cheers,
Rob
*From:* Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> <me@bartk.us> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:38 PM *To:* Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> <psdr@hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> <rob@nr3o.com> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update
Water water everywhere! New water drainage devices have been installed @ Haystack. May be useful elsewhere. Surprised to hear SnoDEM was affected. Those cables are really well supported.
--Bart
On 10/28/2023 6:27 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:
The maintenance at Lookout is complete.
Problems found on inspection include:
1. PTP link to Triangle (only one operating) had an abrasion in the CAT5E jacket up next to the dish. This link has been intermittent, causing the site to go up and down repeatedly, most notably during periods of rain. 2. PTP link to SnoDEM was found to have significant damage to the CAT5E jacket toward the upper end where it runs from the main cableway out to the dish. 3. Sector 2 is offline (more on this below)
The cause of the damage to both PTP link CAT cables was due to another tenant's antenna hardline had become detached from it's mountings and fell toward the inside of the tower, stretching both CAT cables and damaging them.
New CAT cables were pulled for both Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes and the site is stable once again and fed from both sources.
Sector 2 is still down, as we simply could not get to it on this trip. S2 is substantially higher on the tower and after the first two antennas were corrected the call was made to stop there due to fatigue and waning daylight. It is unlikely that S2 will be fixed before winter, but it should be able to be done as soon as an opening allows in the spring.
While we didn't go up to examine the cable, it was leaking water through the jacket down at the tower base just like the Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes were, so it likely shares the same root cause.
Apologies we weren't able to get S2 done, but at least it looks to be cabling instead of a hardware issue. For now S2 has been unplugged at the lightning arrestor.
Thanks to Kenny Richards, Scott Honaker, and Jim Irving for joining me to help make this all happen. We were fortunate to luck into likely the last weather opening for the season.
Cheers,
Rob Salsgiver – NR3O
_______________________________________________
PSDR mailing list
PSDR@hamwan.org
https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
-------- Original message --------From: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com> Date: 10/28/23 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Bart Kus' <me@bartk.us>, 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update I definitely agree it has benefits as a revised standard to future installs and/or retrofits. In this case we didn't have water reach and wick into the RJ45 terminations, so we were lucky this time. Might be something to put on the next visit list. Thanks for sharing. Rob From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:55 PMTo: Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>; 'Puget Sound Data Ring' < psdr@hamwan.org>Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update The key difference is the lack of RJ45 termination on the cable coming down the tower. If you don't give the water somewhere to go, it'll go right into the RJ45 fingers and with PoE on there, it'll corrode and short/open in no time. The punchdown blocks let it drip down without touching any copper. One can also remove the jacket, and shield, and plastic film from the cable to let it drip before an RJ45, but I found that to be cumbersome to do, ugly looking and fragile.--Bart On 10/28/2023 8:51 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:In the case of Lookout, the incoming CAT cables went into the bottom of the lightning protection similar to your picture at Haystack. Once the jackets of the CAT cables were compromised up above, the water rode down the jackets clear inside the building. Ironically the lightning protection wasn't affected, as the excess cable looped inside and upward entry into the lightning protection served to stop/slow the path of the water. It was mostly when the cables were unplugged and left to hang that the water started dripping out. It could have been worse. The hardline that broke free up above did a pretty serious number on the CAT cables, stretching them and allowing them to abrade on the angle iron / etc. Cheers,Rob From: Bart Kus <me@bartk.us> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 8:38 PMTo: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob@nr3o.com>Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Lookout maintenance update Water water everywhere! New water drainage devices have been installed @ Haystack. May be useful elsewhere. Surprised to hear SnoDEM was affected. Those cables are really well supported.--Bart On 10/28/2023 6:27 PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:The maintenance at Lookout is complete. Problems found on inspection include:PTP link to Triangle (only one operating) had an abrasion in the CAT5E jacket up next to the dish. This link has been intermittent, causing the site to go up and down repeatedly, most notably during periods of rain.PTP link to SnoDEM was found to have significant damage to the CAT5E jacket toward the upper end where it runs from the main cableway out to the dish.Sector 2 is offline (more on this below) The cause of the damage to both PTP link CAT cables was due to another tenant's antenna hardline had become detached from it's mountings and fell toward the inside of the tower, stretching both CAT cables and damaging them. New CAT cables were pulled for both Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes and the site is stable once again and fed from both sources. Sector 2 is still down, as we simply could not get to it on this trip. S2 is substantially higher on the tower and after the first two antennas were corrected the call was made to stop there due to fatigue and waning daylight. It is unlikely that S2 will be fixed before winter, but it should be able to be done as soon as an opening allows in the spring. While we didn't go up to examine the cable, it was leaking water through the jacket down at the tower base just like the Triangle and SnoDEM PTP dishes were, so it likely shares the same root cause. Apologies we weren't able to get S2 done, but at least it looks to be cabling instead of a hardware issue. For now S2 has been unplugged at the lightning arrestor. Thanks to Kenny Richards, Scott Honaker, and Jim Irving for joining me to help make this all happen. We were fortunate to luck into likely the last weather opening for the season. Cheers,Rob Salsgiver – NR3O_______________________________________________PSDR mailing listPSDR@hamwan.orghttps://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
participants (2)
-
Dale Skyllingstad -
Kenny Richards