Hey Jesse, Thank you very much for taking the time to share your data! I'm happy to report the guy AARL said to contact about being tested in Anacortes anticipates in-person ham license testing will be given for the first time in a year and a half, this August. I do appreciate how detailed your hardware recommendations were. They're the kind of tips that can save new guys a lot of time. You astutely observed that one needs a direct (or nearly direct) line of sight to a HamWAN node. Through no fault of yours, that may be my biggest impediment. I live in trees! Evidently lower frequency digital mobile radio (DMR) can reach a relay on nearby Lookout Mountain from where I live. It'd be great if someone already set up a lower frequency UHF/VHF tree piercing relay to HamWAN there. Maybe my contribution could be testing for connectivity, either directly or through a relay. I emailed a local ham radio guy about internet over radio in our wooded neignborhood. If it would be convenient, comfortable, and all those good things, feel free to suggest a nice, cheap and easy gizmo to check for HamWAN connectivity directly at ~5 GHz here in the trees. Thanks again, Kingsley On 07/12/2021 06:05, Jesse Victors via PSDR wrote:

Hey Kingsley!

I'm relatively new to myself, but maybe I can provide some answers.

First, you will need an amateur radio license. Entry-level technician-class works, though of course you can get general-class if you want the 1-30 MHz HF bands that are useful for national and international communications. HamWAN operates around 5.9 GHz, right above normal 5 GHz WiFi frequencies, so technical-class amateur radio license gives you those privileges just fine. You're looking at probably 8 hours of study and you can pass the test over Zoom if you want, its straightforward.

Second, you will need the radio equipment. HamWAN uses 802.11 protocols just like WiFi, but you will need the international editions of the networking gear to use the HamWAN frequencies. Since the FCC prevents normal retailers from selling international-edition gear in the US, you'll need to show your amateur radio license and vendors can ship them to you, with the understanding that you can legally and responsibly use those frequencies. This is discussed in https://hamwan.org/Standards/Component%20Engineering/Client%20Hardware.html">https://hamwan.org/Standards/Component%20Engineering/Client%20Hardware.html and https://hamwan.org/Administrative/Internet%20and%20Part%2097.html">https://hamwan.org/Administrative/Internet%20and%20Part%2097.html

Third, you will need a direct (or nearly direct) line of sight to a HamWAN node. https://hamwan.org has a map of nodes, and there's one in your area. If you can get around trees and terrain and physically see the Lookout node, you're golden. Point the dish, power it up, and connect it to your router or laptop.

For hardware, I'd recommend looking at that Client Hardware link above. Dishes like MikroTik DynaDish 5, LHG XL HP5, and the MikroTik mANT30 should work just fine. Personally I'm very tempted by the LHG XL HP5 described in https://mikrotik.com/product/RBLHG-5HPnD-XL and https://www.streakwave.com/amfile/file/download/file/9446/product/28503/ and https://www.streakwave.com/mikrotik-rblhg-5hpnd-xl-5ghz-lhg-27dbi-802-11an-2... but you can use a smaller dish depending on the distance. Again, check the website and that Client Hardware page. I believe the procedure is to contact the guy at Streakwave, show your license from the FCC, and they'll ship you the international version of the hardware. I'm looking at doing this myself in the next couple months, I just have to set up a mast first, but the website has the instruction for you.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

Jesse KJ7YLS in Mill Creek, WA

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

\-------- Original Message -------- On Jul 11, 2021, 3:35 PM, Kingsley G. Morse Jr. < kingsley@loaner.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your technical skills so generously.

Both are fine qualities!

I'm basically a limux computer guy who

is considering testing for his ham radio license,

has not yet bought a radio and

likes the ideal of resilient communication infrastructure.

I live near Lookout Mountain, a few miles outside of Bellingham, WA.

Feel free to

check out my web site at http://kingsleymorse.ch/

and let me know if you think I might help.

Thanks, Kingsley

\-- Time is the fire in which we all burn. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

-- Time is the fire in which we all burn.

Hi Nigel, Excellent, thanks for covering that. I had searched around for 700 MHz gear as well, but that's really good to know. I have very tall trees all around my place too. I can make it to Haystack except for the large trees for the first 1 mile of the path. I have confirmed that Snohomish county does not have height restrictions against personal antenna masts attached to a wall or roof, and while I could use aluminum pipe mated together with flanges from Lowe's to get to 60ft and jump over a nearby tree, its really infeasible to build one tall enough to get over other sets of trees in the line of sight. Without a relay system, the most viable option is simply driving to an area with a line of sight, or installing it at a friends house and linking it over a VPN. Kingsley, I think that might be among your best options. Jesse KJ7YLS \-------- Original Message -------- On Jul 12, 2021, 2:44 PM, Nigel Vander Houwen < nigel@nigelvh.com> wrote:

Kingsley, and others,

Since it was brought up, I’ll add a quick note here. Trees in the path has been a known hiccup that we’ve hoped for a magic resolution to, but one has not been forthcoming. We did some testing with 900MHz radios, but interference there is prevalent, and performance was abysmal. We chose not to purse that thread further.

One could potentially build a relay, but operating on the lower bands means bandwidth restrictions by rules, and by competition for spectrum. You’d be effectively tying 1200/9600 AX.25 to the network. Folks are of course welcome to do so, but in terms of HamWAN itself doing it, that feels to me like reinventing the wheel, and I believe that gets too in the weeds away from our core mission of building and supporting the high speed backbone and access.

So, trees and such remains on our minds, but currently without any good solutions that are performant, and align with HamWAN’s goals.

Thanks, Nigel

...

On Jul 12, 2021, at 2:04 PM, Kingsley G. Morse Jr. <kingsley@loaner.com> wrote:

Hey Jesse,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your data!

I'm happy to report the guy AARL said to contact about being tested in Anacortes anticipates in-person ham license testing will be given for the first time in a year and a half, this August.

I do appreciate how detailed your hardware recommendations were.

They're the kind of tips that can save new guys a lot of time.

You astutely observed that one needs a direct (or nearly direct) line of sight to a HamWAN node.

Through no fault of yours, that may be my biggest impediment.

I live in trees!

Evidently lower frequency digital mobile radio (DMR) can reach a relay on nearby Lookout Mountain from where I live.

It'd be great if someone already set up a lower frequency UHF/VHF tree piercing relay to HamWAN there.

Maybe my contribution could be testing for connectivity, either directly or through a relay.

I emailed a local ham radio guy about internet over radio in our wooded neignborhood.

If it would be convenient, comfortable, and all those good things, feel free to suggest a nice, cheap and easy gizmo to check for HamWAN connectivity directly at ~5 GHz here in the trees.

Thanks again, Kingsley

On 07/12/2021 06:05, Jesse Victors via PSDR wrote:

...

Hey Kingsley!

I'm relatively new to myself, but maybe I can provide some answers.

First, you will need an amateur radio license. Entry-level technician-class works, though of course you can get general-class if you want the 1-30 MHz HF bands that are useful for national and international communications. HamWAN operates around 5.9 GHz, right above normal 5 GHz WiFi frequencies, so technical-class amateur radio license gives you those privileges just fine. You're looking at probably 8 hours of study and you can pass the test over Zoom if you want, its straightforward.

Second, you will need the radio equipment. HamWAN uses 802.11 protocols just like WiFi, but you will need the international editions of the networking gear to use the HamWAN frequencies. Since the FCC prevents normal retailers from selling international-edition gear in the US, you'll need to show your amateur radio license and vendors can ship them to you, with the understanding that you can legally and responsibly use those frequencies. This is discussed in https://hamwan.org/Standards/Component%20Engineering/Client%20Hardware.html">https://hamwan.org/Standards/Component%20Engineering/Client%20Hardware.html and https://hamwan.org/Administrative/Internet%20and%20Part%2097.html">https://hamwan.org/Administrative/Internet%20and%20Part%2097.html

Third, you will need a direct (or nearly direct) line of sight to a HamWAN node. https://hamwan.org has a map of nodes, and there's one in your area. If you can get around trees and terrain and physically see the Lookout node, you're golden. Point the dish, power it up, and connect it to your router or laptop.

For hardware, I'd recommend looking at that Client Hardware link above. Dishes like MikroTik DynaDish 5, LHG XL HP5, and the MikroTik mANT30 should work just fine. Personally I'm very tempted by the LHG XL HP5 described in https://mikrotik.com/product/RBLHG-5HPnD-XL and https://www.streakwave.com/amfile/file/download/file/9446/product/28503/ and https://www.streakwave.com/mikrotik-rblhg-5hpnd-xl-5ghz-lhg-27dbi-802-11an-2... but you can use a smaller dish depending on the distance. Again, check the website and that Client Hardware page. I believe the procedure is to contact the guy at Streakwave, show your license from the FCC, and they'll ship you the international version of the hardware. I'm looking at doing this myself in the next couple months, I just have to set up a mast first, but the website has the instruction for you.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

Jesse KJ7YLS in Mill Creek, WA

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

\\-------- Original Message -------- On Jul 11, 2021, 3:35 PM, Kingsley G. Morse Jr. < kingsley@loaner.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your technical skills so generously.

Both are fine qualities!

I'm basically a limux computer guy who

is considering testing for his ham radio license,

has not yet bought a radio and

likes the ideal of resilient communication infrastructure.

I live near Lookout Mountain, a few miles outside of Bellingham, WA.

Feel free to

check out my web site at http://kingsleymorse.ch/

and let me know if you think I might help.

Thanks, Kingsley

\\-- Time is the fire in which we all burn. \\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_\\\_ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

...

\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

-- Time is the fire in which we all burn.

\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

I understand and agree with PSDR's focus on "core mission of building and supporting the high speed backbone and access". That's a noble and challenging mission that requires focus. But it's inaccurate to dismiss systems that use lower frequency spectrum such as 440-450 MHz as merely "1200/9600 AX.25" as the best that can be done. One example is VARA FM which can do 25 kbps in a conventional 20 kHz VHF / UHF radio channel. Yes, there are issues such as it being proprietary, requires Windows, payment of a license key for best performance, etc. But it works, and performance is FAR better than "1200/9600 AX.25". It's also inaccurate to dismiss all systems that operate in 902-928 systems as "performance as abysmal" due to "interference is prevalent". For example, one vendor of robust systems for 902-928 MHz is FreeWave Technologies, whose key technology is Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS). It's slower, but FHSS is far more robust than DSSS that Wireless ISP systems that operate in 902-928 MHz that do operate poorly in the presence of congestion. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:44 PM Nigel Vander Houwen <nigel@nigelvh.com> wrote:

Kingsley, and others,

Since it was brought up, I’ll add a quick note here. Trees in the path has been a known hiccup that we’ve hoped for a magic resolution to, but one has not been forthcoming. We did some testing with 900MHz radios, but interference there is prevalent, and performance was abysmal. We chose not to purse that thread further.

One could potentially build a relay, but operating on the lower bands means bandwidth restrictions by rules, and by competition for spectrum. You’d be effectively tying 1200/9600 AX.25 to the network. Folks are of course welcome to do so, but in terms of HamWAN itself doing it, that feels to me like reinventing the wheel, and I believe that gets too in the weeds away from our core mission of building and supporting the high speed backbone and access.

So, trees and such remains on our minds, but currently without any good solutions that are performant, and align with HamWAN’s goals.

Thanks, Nigel

-- Steve Stroh (personal / general): stevestroh@gmail.com

Dear Steve and Nigel, I said it before. I'll say it again. Thank you. I emailed moreinfo@freewave.com asking about tree piercing hardware with about a mile range. I'll try to let you know if enlightenment ensues. So, Kingsley On 07/13/2021 17:04, Nigel Vander Houwen wrote:

Excellent commentary Steve,

As with most things, we end up summarizing/simplifying a bit. You are correct, there are other options that expand a bit beyond 1200/9600 baud for the lower bands. Though as you’ve noted there are drawbacks, some of which are substantial compromises we don’t want to make.

We don’t want to be windows only, a license key could be considered though isn’t ideal. And 25kbps is an improvement on 1200/9600 baud, but doesn’t really get up to our multi-megabit goals/tagline.

With regards to 900MHz, you are also correct that there are a number of vendors out there. We’ve tried a very small number, and had poor results. We’re happy to hear if folks have real world experience with specific things working, but we can’t test every conceivable device ourselves. Additionally we’ve seen a number of these sorts of devices/companies that are unsuitable for our market. Price is above what we think is what we want to deploy or what we think users will be willing to pay, or the company being uninterested in working with us (or Hams in general). Of course, these concerns are in addition to the earlier bits about platform compatibility, real world performance, etc.

I have not personally tried FreeWave, I don’t see a speed reference in their marketing on the web site, but as always if you have real world experience with a product you think would further the goals, please do let us know.

As always, excellent input Steve, Thanks!

Nigel

...

On Jul 13, 2021, at 4:45 PM, Steve Stroh <steve.stroh@gmail.com> wrote:

I understand and agree with PSDR's focus on "core mission of building and supporting the high speed backbone and access". That's a noble and challenging mission that requires focus.

But it's inaccurate to dismiss systems that use lower frequency spectrum such as 440-450 MHz as merely "1200/9600 AX.25" as the best that can be done. One example is VARA FM which can do 25 kbps in a conventional 20 kHz VHF / UHF radio channel. Yes, there are issues such as it being proprietary, requires Windows, payment of a license key for best performance, etc. But it works, and performance is FAR better than "1200/9600 AX.25".

It's also inaccurate to dismiss all systems that operate in 902-928 systems as "performance as abysmal" due to "interference is prevalent". For example, one vendor of robust systems for 902-928 MHz is FreeWave Technologies, whose key technology is Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS). It's slower, but FHSS is far more robust than DSSS that Wireless ISP systems that operate in 902-928 MHz that do operate poorly in the presence of congestion.

Thanks,

Steve N8GNJ

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:44 PM Nigel Vander Houwen <nigel@nigelvh.com <mailto:nigel@nigelvh.com>> wrote:

...

Kingsley, and others,

Since it was brought up, I’ll add a quick note here. Trees in the path has been a known hiccup that we’ve hoped for a magic resolution to, but one has not been forthcoming. We did some testing with 900MHz radios, but interference there is prevalent, and performance was abysmal. We chose not to purse that thread further.

One could potentially build a relay, but operating on the lower bands means bandwidth restrictions by rules, and by competition for spectrum. You’d be effectively tying 1200/9600 AX.25 to the network. Folks are of course welcome to do so, but in terms of HamWAN itself doing it, that feels to me like reinventing the wheel, and I believe that gets too in the weeds away from our core mission of building and supporting the high speed backbone and access.

So, trees and such remains on our minds, but currently without any good solutions that are performant, and align with HamWAN’s goals.

Thanks, Nigel

-- Steve Stroh (personal / general): stevestroh@gmail.com <mailto:stevestroh@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr <http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr>

_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr

-- Time is the fire in which we all burn.