Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don't recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails.Amateur Radio
Stephen, As to the accuracy of the coordinates, it is likely they were referenced to NAD27 and Google Earth uses WGS84. That can easily account for the couple of hundred foot discrepancy you note. As to tower climbing, volunteer or professional, they must have proper certification. King County pretty much limits climbing to a specific vendor they deal with. Carl, N7KUW From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don't recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails.Amateur Radio
Thanks for the reply, Carl. EO_ says it's DNR (not KC), so that would be WA state; do you know what their requirements are for climbing their tower? (hopefully their don't require a vendor that needs to be paid) Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:40 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, As to the accuracy of the coordinates, it is likely they were referenced to NAD27 and Google Earth uses WGS84. That can easily account for the couple of hundred foot discrepancy you note. As to tower climbing, volunteer or professional, they must have proper certification. King County pretty much limits climbing to a specific vendor they deal with. Carl, N7KUW From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don't recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails.Amateur Radio
I do not know WA State requirement for tower work. I do know that one of the towers up there is new (last year or two) and is PSERN. That is 100% contractor handled. One of them may be the old King County tower, which I think is going away (everything moved to PSERN tower). It has been too many years since I've been at that site, so am not familiar with what is there now. Sorry. From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:53 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Thanks for the reply, Carl. EO_ says it's DNR (not KC), so that would be WA state; do you know what their requirements are for climbing their tower? (hopefully their don't require a vendor that needs to be paid) Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:40 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, As to the accuracy of the coordinates, it is likely they were referenced to NAD27 and Google Earth uses WGS84. That can easily account for the couple of hundred foot discrepancy you note. As to tower climbing, volunteer or professional, they must have proper certification. King County pretty much limits climbing to a specific vendor they deal with. Carl, N7KUW From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don't recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails.Amateur Radio
Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it's on the middle tower. At the moment it's only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I've heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I'm curious to find out if it's expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I'm trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don't recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails.Amateur Radio
Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio
The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info.
The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are.
The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible.
However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge.
I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal.
I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about?
There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there.
So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉
Best, Stephen W9SK
*From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of *Rob Salsgiver *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM *To:* 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
Stephen,
Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better.
FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position:
And here is a rough look to the south and west:
Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible.
Cheers,
Rob
*From:* PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org>] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Kangas *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM *To:* psdr@hamwan.org *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos.
*From:* Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM *To:* 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_...
Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top.
I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable.
On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought.
Stephen (eeeehaw)
Stephen Kangas W9SK
Public Information Officer
North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT
North Bend, WA (CN97)
stephen@kangas.com
425-503-9876
NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events.
*When all else fails…Amateur Radio*
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Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL? I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> ' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Stephen, The reason the existing HamWAN client was installed on the DNR tower was to work around the height/LOS limitations of the tower where AF7PR's repeater is located. Multiple HamWAN installations are visible from the current client's installation point. The plan is to install a special PtP link to get the connectivity between the DNR site (where the client is installed) and the AF7PR DMR repeater building. E. Tiger only has a single Sector installed, so there is only 120degree coverage. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL?
I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography?
Stephen W9SK
*From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of *Kenny Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM *To:* Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location.
Thanks
Kenny
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info.
The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are.
The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible.
However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge.
I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal.
I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about?
There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there.
So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉
Best, Stephen W9SK
*From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of *Rob Salsgiver *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM *To:* 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
Stephen,
Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better.
FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position:
And here is a rough look to the south and west:
Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible.
Cheers,
Rob
*From:* PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org>] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Kangas *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM *To:* psdr@hamwan.org *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos.
*From:* Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM *To:* 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org> *Subject:* Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site
In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_...
Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top.
I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable.
On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought.
Stephen (eeeehaw)
Stephen Kangas W9SK
Public Information Officer
North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT
North Bend, WA (CN97)
stephen@kangas.com
425-503-9876
NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events.
*When all else fails…Amateur Radio*
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Kenny, thanks; makes sense. What is the confidence level of getting good signal from Haystack to Rattlesnake, which is some distance away? Is that something that was tried the last time folks were up there? So what is the opinion about need to have the DNR site become a cell site for multiple client service in the area to include clients on the valley floor? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:19 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, The reason the existing HamWAN client was installed on the DNR tower was to work around the height/LOS limitations of the tower where AF7PR's repeater is located. Multiple HamWAN installations are visible from the current client's installation point. The plan is to install a special PtP link to get the connectivity between the DNR site (where the client is installed) and the AF7PR DMR repeater building. E. Tiger only has a single Sector installed, so there is only 120degree coverage. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL? I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> ' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Stephen / all,
From the client side of things, the hands-down best option is to assemble a list of EMCOMM and/or other client locations you are interested in “lighting up”. With this I can plot them in CalTopo and/or Google Earth to see the best options for coverage from existing sites, Rattlesnake, or other sites that may be needed. As an example – you may find 80% of sites able to be covered by other sites, 15% by Rattlesnake (DNR), and 5% by no existing or currently proposed site. That said, you may be able to “bounce” off of another client site or hang a sector off of a connected facility to “fill in” your map/needs. With a list of sites we can do plenty of “what-ifs” to see what can be done.
Technically it >looks< like Haystack has a LOS to the existing Rattlesnake site. Haystack That said, Bart has been space constrained up there and may or may not have room for another PTP link as space has been at a premium. That said, Rattlesnake also appears to have LOS to Capitol Park, East Tiger, and Paine Field in Everett, so I think it should be able to be well supported if needed. Capitol Park East Tiger Paine IF we determine that Rattlesnake is the best option for covering a high number of clients, then we need to explore with the lease-holder and the facility whether we can and what would be needed to add the additional gear to the site to make a full cell instead of a linked client site. Hope that helps. Shoot me a list of sites when you have time and I can add them and shoot you some prospective coverage maps to see what our options are. Feel free to shoot them at me off-list at rob@nr3o.com. Shout if there are more questions. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:35 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Kenny, thanks; makes sense. What is the confidence level of getting good signal from Haystack to Rattlesnake, which is some distance away? Is that something that was tried the last time folks were up there? So what is the opinion about need to have the DNR site become a cell site for multiple client service in the area to include clients on the valley floor? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:19 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, The reason the existing HamWAN client was installed on the DNR tower was to work around the height/LOS limitations of the tower where AF7PR's repeater is located. Multiple HamWAN installations are visible from the current client's installation point. The plan is to install a special PtP link to get the connectivity between the DNR site (where the client is installed) and the AF7PR DMR repeater building. E. Tiger only has a single Sector installed, so there is only 120degree coverage. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote: Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL? I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote: Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Rob, sounds like a plan. I’ll work on compiling a list of sample sites we’d like to cover and get back to you soon (hopefully less than a week). Thanks mucho for helping out on this, I know it costs nontrivial time. Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:22 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen / all,
From the client side of things, the hands-down best option is to assemble a list of EMCOMM and/or other client locations you are interested in “lighting up”. With this I can plot them in CalTopo and/or Google Earth to see the best options for coverage from existing sites, Rattlesnake, or other sites that may be needed. As an example – you may find 80% of sites able to be covered by other sites, 15% by Rattlesnake (DNR), and 5% by no existing or currently proposed site. That said, you may be able to “bounce” off of another client site or hang a sector off of a connected facility to “fill in” your map/needs. With a list of sites we can do plenty of “what-ifs” to see what can be done.
Technically it >looks< like Haystack has a LOS to the existing Rattlesnake site. Haystack That said, Bart has been space constrained up there and may or may not have room for another PTP link as space has been at a premium. That said, Rattlesnake also appears to have LOS to Capitol Park, East Tiger, and Paine Field in Everett, so I think it should be able to be well supported if needed. Capitol Park East Tiger Paine IF we determine that Rattlesnake is the best option for covering a high number of clients, then we need to explore with the lease-holder and the facility whether we can and what would be needed to add the additional gear to the site to make a full cell instead of a linked client site. Hope that helps. Shoot me a list of sites when you have time and I can add them and shoot you some prospective coverage maps to see what our options are. Feel free to shoot them at me off-list at rob@nr3o.com <mailto:rob@nr3o.com> . Shout if there are more questions. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:35 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Kenny, thanks; makes sense. What is the confidence level of getting good signal from Haystack to Rattlesnake, which is some distance away? Is that something that was tried the last time folks were up there? So what is the opinion about need to have the DNR site become a cell site for multiple client service in the area to include clients on the valley floor? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:19 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, The reason the existing HamWAN client was installed on the DNR tower was to work around the height/LOS limitations of the tower where AF7PR's repeater is located. Multiple HamWAN installations are visible from the current client's installation point. The plan is to install a special PtP link to get the connectivity between the DNR site (where the client is installed) and the AF7PR DMR repeater building. E. Tiger only has a single Sector installed, so there is only 120degree coverage. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL? I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> ' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Rob, I’ve finally had a chance to get around to this. Here’s a list of the sites we’d like to cover: * City of North Bend EOC (dish can be placed on 25ft tower): 47.487045,-121.7737474 * City of Snoqualmie EOC (dish can be placed on their fire station roof: 47.5350779,-121.8365717 * Snoqualmie Valley Hospital (dish can be placed on hospital building roof): 47.5128926,-121.8854163 * Snoqualmie Tribe HQ office (dish can be placed on building roof, or tower as needed): 47.5153695,-121.825601 * W9SK Cedar Village emcomm site: 47.4752825,-121.7576342 * W7HMT Riverpoint emcomm site (dish can be placed on 30ft tower): 47.4823059,-121.7116913 * KE7CFM RACES & ARES AEC site (dish can be placed on building roof): 47.4852845,-121.801341 * Designated North Bend emergency shelter (Twin Falls Middle School, dish can be placed on roof: 47.472581,-121.7125167 * Future site for HamWan relay to King County EOC at Valley Camp and to WA State Fire Academy and Quarantine Site (100ft tower currently there): 47.4502306,-121.6912039 Rob, we’ve begun investigating getting funding for the equipment needed to put in a HamWan cell site at Rattlesnake on that DNR tower. This is early, but wanted you to know. We have three government agencies that could easily grant the money for that (not including King County). If we have sector antennas facing north and providing abt 180degree coverage, I’m thinking we should be good, but would enjoy hearing your opinion on that. AF7PR repeater on the SECAST tower is south of the DNR tower but could be linked via PTP dishes or a copper run? After you’ve had a chance to assess what you see on CalTopo etc, feel free to advise best network topology. We’re trying to keep this under $5K for Rattlesnake if possible, and come up with what’s needed on the valley floor separately; we’re thinking about the possibility of a local ring with some meshing down there that grows over time. You (or someone there) mentioned that DNR requires certified tower climbers with pro gear. We have a line on 3 hams who are certified with gear that are interested in volunteering for this work party. Target is to see if we can pull everything together by late summer. I’m curious about use of E Tiger as a connection path? Haystack looks pretty far away. Your thoughts? BTW, I’ll be presenting an Intro to DMR at Comm Academy and I see your name on sessions there, so hope to see you there. Stephen W9SK From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:05 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: RE: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Rob, sounds like a plan. I’ll work on compiling a list of sample sites we’d like to cover and get back to you soon (hopefully less than a week). Thanks mucho for helping out on this, I know it costs nontrivial time. Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:22 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen / all,
From the client side of things, the hands-down best option is to assemble a list of EMCOMM and/or other client locations you are interested in “lighting up”. With this I can plot them in CalTopo and/or Google Earth to see the best options for coverage from existing sites, Rattlesnake, or other sites that may be needed. As an example – you may find 80% of sites able to be covered by other sites, 15% by Rattlesnake (DNR), and 5% by no existing or currently proposed site. That said, you may be able to “bounce” off of another client site or hang a sector off of a connected facility to “fill in” your map/needs. With a list of sites we can do plenty of “what-ifs” to see what can be done.
Technically it >looks< like Haystack has a LOS to the existing Rattlesnake site. Haystack That said, Bart has been space constrained up there and may or may not have room for another PTP link as space has been at a premium. That said, Rattlesnake also appears to have LOS to Capitol Park, East Tiger, and Paine Field in Everett, so I think it should be able to be well supported if needed. Capitol Park East Tiger Paine IF we determine that Rattlesnake is the best option for covering a high number of clients, then we need to explore with the lease-holder and the facility whether we can and what would be needed to add the additional gear to the site to make a full cell instead of a linked client site. Hope that helps. Shoot me a list of sites when you have time and I can add them and shoot you some prospective coverage maps to see what our options are. Feel free to shoot them at me off-list at rob@nr3o.com <mailto:rob@nr3o.com> . Shout if there are more questions. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:35 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Kenny, thanks; makes sense. What is the confidence level of getting good signal from Haystack to Rattlesnake, which is some distance away? Is that something that was tried the last time folks were up there? So what is the opinion about need to have the DNR site become a cell site for multiple client service in the area to include clients on the valley floor? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:19 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, The reason the existing HamWAN client was installed on the DNR tower was to work around the height/LOS limitations of the tower where AF7PR's repeater is located. Multiple HamWAN installations are visible from the current client's installation point. The plan is to install a special PtP link to get the connectivity between the DNR site (where the client is installed) and the AF7PR DMR repeater building. E. Tiger only has a single Sector installed, so there is only 120degree coverage. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Ah, so perhaps what Rob referred to was 100yd away is actually uphill (south), which is about where the SECAST tower site is at where AF7PR’s DMR repeater is located. Be aware that the SECAST tower is barely visible from North Bend, ie may not be LOS for 5GHz coverage, but it may also benefit with a client facing a future cell site on the supposed DNR tower, along with others a few miles away down below on the valley floor? It would be good to see your video, perhaps you can put it on YouTube or a cloud drive with a URL? I noticed that the E Tiger HamWan (cell site?) heat map shows coverage W & S, but pretty much nothing E toward Rattlesnake. Is that because of directional antenna(s), or topography? Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Kenny Richards Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:50 PM To: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site The Rattlesnake project that Rob referenced already on the HamWAN books is getting AF7PR's repeater backed by HamWAN. I have some video from the top of the DMR tower (where the existing HamWAN client is located) of what is visible from that location. Thanks Kenny On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > wrote: Thanks mucho, Rob for your reply & info. The idea of putting a client site up there is my own cockamany idea, based on what I interpreted would be the best thing to do after doing some reading at HamWan.org and other websites. I am at the moment simply exploring, gathering info, etc, to develop a proposal for our local ARES teams that serve the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie, including emcomm in both EOC and in field locations in this area. I was figuring a cell site would be correct architecture to reach a wider area here, given the height of Rattlesnake mountain and the success we’ve enjoyed with both FM analog and DMR repeaters up there serving a good coverage are. The objective is primarily a reliability of emergency communications, including repeater linkage (especially PNW DMR linked repeaters) for our volunteer emcomm hams working in the field individually, with first responders (eg Eastside Fire & Rescue, local police, our local hospital, etc), doing windshield surveys, plus, voice and internet for city EOCs to bolster WinLink etc. Presumably the EOCs and certain home sites would have HamWan clients, in some cases making meshing possible. However, if there is a better architecture for this, please suggest another option(s). Keep in mind that our people are on a valley floor surrounded by many tall hills, and mountains. There is no LOS between the EOCs of the cities of North Bend and Snoqualmie; in fact, although this needs to be confirmed, I suspect there is no LOS between the City of Snoqualmie EOC and the top of Rattlesnake for 5GHz, given their EOC is at their fire station located essentially at the intersection of Snoqualmie Parkway at WA 202 in the trees. On the other hand, the City of North Bend’s EOC is LOS from top of Rattlesnake, with a 25ft tower to give them an edge. I am hopeful that our NBAT group who serves North Bend may be able to secure some funding from them, currently intended for a 70cm voice repeater at their EOC tower, and perhaps we can squeeze in something to hire a tower climber and some other items to add HamWan up at Rattlesnake. A road not quite traveled yet, in part because I’m still gathering info for the final emcomm proposal. I’m curious about what other sites are only 100yds downhill away, as I’m not aware of any except the WA state site to the east that is used primarily by Washington State Patrol; is that what you are talking about? There are three other tower sites directly south from the location you worked at, belonging to Bonneville Power Admin, AT&T Wireless (for cell service, they are about the only party leasing space on that private tower), and a small tower/shack site owned by SECAST on land they rent from DNR (where the local Rattlesnake DMR repeater is located along with others). We would love to see the Rattlesnake DMR repeater (owned by AF7PR) on a HamWan link as backup to the inet DSL link running over to the AT&T tower next door. I was part of a volunteer workparty that did some repairs and maintenance at the SECAST site last July, which is when I took those photos (I have other pix of the other sites, too). That is when I learned about the various site owners there. So, consider this preliminary conversation I’m instigating from my end, exploring best options, coming from a position of relative HamWan ignorance, so you guys can set me straight. 😉 Best, Stephen W9SK From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> > On Behalf Of Rob Salsgiver Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:17 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Stephen, Thanks for the notes. Kenny, Tom, and I worked on the initial connection up there this last summer. In your first photo, it’s on the middle tower. At the moment it’s only a client dish and the original intent was/is to connect that site and a neighboring site down the hill about 100 yards away. The 2nd site is on the list for projects when the weather clears. This is the first I’ve heard of putting a full cell site up there, which certainly would change things a bit. Can you tell me where the full site discussions originated from? I’m curious to find out if it’s expected to go into/onto the tower we are currently on or a different location, who the contact would be, etc. I’m trying to get projects mapped out and prioritized for the coming year and the more info we have sooner, the better. FWIW, here is a LOS map looking north from our current tower position: And here is a rough look to the south and west: Keep in touch as we get into the new year. I would be good to coordinate any new work with the project already going on there if possible. Cheers, Rob From: PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kangas Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:23 PM To: psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site Oops, attachment challenged today. Now attached photos. From: Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:22 PM To: 'psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> ' <psdr@hamwan.org <mailto:psdr@hamwan.org> > Subject: Rattlesnake Mtn HamWan cell site In follow up to the Kiwi chat conversation with @EO_... Attached are a couple photos related to two of the 7 communications site towers adjacent to each other on Rattlesnake. Four of those are clustered together in a small spot: PSE, King County, USFS, and possibly DNR. These photos were taken in July 2019, and the USFS site appears abandoned in that cluster. One of these photos shows the towers for King County and what is possibly DNR, but I don’t recall exactly which one is which, perhaps you can ID (my impression is that KC is the taller of the two). The taller of these two happened to have a sign on its shack with lat/lon coordinates on it, which is shown in the second photo. Interestingly, those coords places a Google maps marker at the edge of the forest clearing a couple hundred feet away from the entire cluster, perhaps because the coords are not precise enough. Both of these towers have a clear view of North Bend and Snoqualmie Ridge IMO, although as EO_ pointed out the HamWan link from Haystack or wherever may need to be at the very top. I will be exploring the possibility of getting volunteer certified tower climbing help for a workparty proposal to you this coming spring/summer when the road there is passable. On a separate note, King County supposedly also owns the tower site at I-90 exit 38 Tinkham Road that should be LOS to their Rattlesnake site, and may be a possible hop towards getting over Snoqualmie Pass and eventually eastern WA in the future? Given their involvement in WA EMD and Cascadia prep, perhaps they would be amenable. There is a tower on top of nearby Grouse Ridge (next to the Fire Training Academy, and an old now unused site on Mount Washington that could be investigated as hop sites, both accessible by roads in summer. Just a thought. Stephen (eeeehaw) Stephen Kangas W9SK Public Information Officer North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT North Bend, WA (CN97) stephen@kangas.com <mailto:stephen@kangas.com> 425-503-9876 NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during emergencies and public service events. When all else fails…Amateur Radio _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org <mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org> http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
participants (4)
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Carl Leon -
Kenny Richards -
Rob Salsgiver -
Stephen Kangas