I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. Thanks!
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel. -Doug- On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
If all sectors are present, then they will be aligned on those bearings as closely as possible. In a few locations with 1 or 2 sectors only and local obstructions, sectors have been adjusted a few degrees (probably no more than 20 or 30 degrees) to optimize covered areas. You would not find a sector 1 antenna pointed south. -Doug- On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 9:51 AM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets. FWIW, Stephen W9SK -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything. On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Nick, and anyone else who is interested, Yes, sectors are almost universally installed to the 0,120,240 headings. We do this to minimize frequency interference so that for example, two sector 1’s on different sites will be front to back relative to each other. There have been rare circumstances where landforms/heavy vegetation have blocked coverage at a site, and the population area has been near the edge of a sector (or where two sectors coverages would meet), and we have rotate the plan *slightly*, but this is a few degrees. We *NEVER* make significant deviations to the aim for the above interference reasons. We (as noted before) will sometime omit a sector if it’s not going to provide value, but that doesn’t change the aim plan. Nigel
On Mar 16, 2023, at 21:16, Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself. We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof? Tom KD7LXL On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out. On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
To Tom’s point, the distance almost doesn’t matter. We’ve had links much farther than the 28 miles you’re looking at. You would of course want to select a client setup with the most gain possible for reliability, but almost universally if you can see it, you can connect. Nigel
On Mar 17, 2023, at 17:34, Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Yep, the LOS clearance over the trees is going to be the biggest part. I'm hoping the LIDAR data in the Ubiquiti tool is accurate enough to capture tree height. Good to know about the link distance!
On Mar 17, 2023, at 17:48, Nigel Vander Houwen <nigel@nigelvh.com> wrote:
To Tom’s point, the distance almost doesn’t matter. We’ve had links much farther than the 28 miles you’re looking at. You would of course want to select a client setup with the most gain possible for reliability, but almost universally if you can see it, you can connect.
Nigel
On Mar 17, 2023, at 17:34, Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote: I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: > I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. > At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. > > Thanks!
I’m running a reliable connection Tacoma -> Haystack, and I consistently achieve over 10Mbs / 10Mbs download/upload speeds with very low latency under 20ms with a distance of over 85k / 52mi. LOS is going to be the best factor in selecting a site for your setup. 73, Wade W7ITL On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 5:48 PM Nigel Vander Houwen <nigel@nigelvh.com> wrote:
To Tom’s point, the distance almost doesn’t matter. We’ve had links much farther than the 28 miles you’re looking at. You would of course want to select a client setup with the most gain possible for reliability, but almost universally if you can see it, you can connect.
Nigel
On Mar 17, 2023, at 17:34, Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: > I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. > At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > PSDR mailing list > PSDR@hamwan.org > https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz connection frequency reliably. Use a telescope if needed. If you have a single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location. IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon. If the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance. If the tower is on a mountain it helps. Same for Rx antenna. But you're talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table number no matter what topo RF software says. The beam width is so wide at that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north bearings is not going to make much difference. Borrow a telescope and sight it on a clear day like I did. Which is another matter, as I've seen signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, imagine 28mi with rain. If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower and repeat the telescope sighting from its top. If you still can't see it, figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network. Stephen W9SK On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Installing a tower just to climb it and peer through a telescope seems...impractical :) I discovered last night while poking around that my quadcopter has a panoramic photo mode where it'll yaw in place and snap pictures and stitch them together. I can launch it to 30' AGL and then take panoramic shots every 5-10' to see what exactly is visible at each level.
On Mar 17, 2023, at 23:00, Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz connection frequency reliably. Use a telescope if needed. If you have a single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location.
IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon. If the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance. If the tower is on a mountain it helps. Same for Rx antenna. But you're talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table number no matter what topo RF software says. The beam width is so wide at that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north bearings is not going to make much difference. Borrow a telescope and sight it on a clear day like I did. Which is another matter, as I've seen signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, imagine 28mi with rain. If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower and repeat the telescope sighting from its top. If you still can't see it, figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network.
Stephen W9SK
On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote: I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote: Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote: Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel.
-Doug-
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: > I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. > At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > PSDR mailing list > PSDR@hamwan.org > https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
_______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
Yes, but will it see the sector node antenna 28mi away? Or at least the comm site location over the ground horizon? On March 18, 2023 12:31:55 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Installing a tower just to climb it and peer through a telescope seems...impractical :) I discovered last night while poking around that my quadcopter has a panoramic photo mode where it'll yaw in place and snap pictures and stitch them together. I can launch it to 30' AGL and then take panoramic shots every 5-10' to see what exactly is visible at each level.
On Mar 17, 2023, at 23:00, Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz connection frequency reliably. Use a telescope if needed. If you have a single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location.
IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon. If the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance. If the tower is on a mountain it helps. Same for Rx antenna. But you're talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table number no matter what topo RF software says. The beam width is so wide at that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north bearings is not going to make much difference. Borrow a telescope and sight it on a clear day like I did. Which is another matter, as I've seen signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, imagine 28mi with rain. If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower and repeat the telescope sighting from its top. If you still can't see it, figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network.
Stephen W9SK
On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote: I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof?
Tom KD7LXL
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote: Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets.
FWIW, Stephen W9SK
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW
-----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote: > Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the > side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we > omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any > useful purpose. > We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the > website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have > questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly > (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC > channel. > > -Doug- > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas > <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: >> I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna >> height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 >> degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm >> trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I >> can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I >> "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get >> connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd >> need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. >> At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data >> for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. >> >> Thanks! >> _______________________________________________ >> PSDR mailing list >> PSDR@hamwan.org >> https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr > _______________________________________________ > PSDR mailing list > PSDR@hamwan.org > https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
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If my only option here is "build a 70' tower and climb to the top with a telescope" then it's pretty much a non-starter. Bringing us back to the initial part of the thread, simulating the link using terrain and object elevation data to see how high up I need to get and what sites would be easiest to hit.
On Mar 18, 2023, at 16:45, Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote:
Yes, but will it see the sector node antenna 28mi away? Or at least the comm site location over the ground horizon?
Hamwan works great for me @ 24 mile trip one way, Issaquah to Haystack. 4mb See for yourself. This website is hosted across the connection. http://wf7u.net I’ll have to try looking for haystack with a telescope, couldn’t see it with binoculars that far away. ________________________________ From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> on behalf of Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 4:45:35 PM To: Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> Cc: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Yes, but will it see the sector node antenna 28mi away? Or at least the comm site location over the ground horizon? On March 18, 2023 12:31:55 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: Installing a tower just to climb it and peer through a telescope seems...impractical :) I discovered last night while poking around that my quadcopter has a panoramic photo mode where it'll yaw in place and snap pictures and stitch them together. I can launch it to 30' AGL and then take panoramic shots every 5-10' to see what exactly is visible at each level. On Mar 17, 2023, at 23:00, Stephen Kangas <stephen@kangas.com> wrote: I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz connection frequency reliably. Use a telescope if needed. If you have a single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location. IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon. If the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance. If the tower is on a mountain it helps. Same for Rx antenna. But you're talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table number no matter what topo RF software says. The beam width is so wide at that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north bearings is not going to make much difference. Borrow a telescope and sight it on a clear day like I did. Which is another matter, as I've seen signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, imagine 28mi with rain. If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower and repeat the telescope sighting from its top. If you still can't see it, figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network. Stephen W9SK On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: I can see nothing from my roof. From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out. On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote: I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself. We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while standing on your roof? Tom KD7LXL On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality? I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything. On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote: Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here. My experience working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on the user community. We're not talking really narrow beams here. You should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing offsets. FWIW, Stephen W9SK -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr@hamwan.org> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where that varies, but am not certain. Carl, N7KUW -----Original Message----- From: PSDR <psdr-bounces@hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM To: psdr@hamwan.org Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details? Sorry, I phrased that part poorly. Are all sectors aligned at 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote: Not all the cell sites have every sector. If a cell site is on the side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any useful purpose. We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail. If you have questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly (dpk@randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC channel. -Doug- On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick@explodinglemur.org> wrote: I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them. Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north? Is there anywhere that has EIRP info? I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites. For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees. At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past. Thanks! _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr _______________________________________________ PSDR mailing list PSDR@hamwan.org https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr
participants (8)
-
Carl Leon -
Doug Kingston -
Nick Kartsioukas -
Nigel Vander Houwen -
Paul Sundquist -
Stephen Kangas -
Tom Hayward -
Wade W7ITL